This is disturbing. There were a couple poor choices on her part or was it a failure to understand the process? That being said, Indiana is a very anti worker rights state. She will have little recourse.
Also it would have been better had the company selected at least 1 or 2 additional women for the class. Did I interpret her post accurately - has she been flying abroad?
A couple basic understandings - you must have a study partner for a program like this, that study partner will become your Simulator partner. Did she pick a partner? She may have missed this as she was out of flying for a few years according to the above. It could have been a cultural difference. Yes, if she was excluded from the primary study texts that is a genuine handicap. Study tips and references are often shared by this method.
She clearly was amongst the most experienced in the class but her role should be to do her own studies 1st, then participate where she could. Pilots work in TEAMS, Crew Resource Management is the very foundation of safety in Aviation. That would have smoothly integrated her into the all male group - something I have enormous sympathy for. It isn't that easy when dealing with less experienced guys.
There are sooo many exams involved. The first written exam she challenged is actually a great study basis for all that follows. Gouge on a written? Even better. In the pantheon of Aviation Academics be glad to have it, compare your own interpretations and submit accordingly. She picked the wrong fight here.
Oral exams are vastly more difficult, probative, require precise comprehension & cognitive reasoning sequence than the written. Save your fire sister, not having a study partner and complaining about gouge? I wish they had another woman in the class with you - that would have made a difference for sure. Going to the FAA for this was is not the best.
The decision to not upgrade is personal and will have to be defended. Better if you can point to substantiative reasons. Management may not say you’re correct, but they will live with it. Clearly they supported her decision by putting her in an FO class.
(This company has a highly experienced female CP. Since she was not flying on line Van de Heuvel was ineligible to request her input.)
As for going to the Feds, believe me when I tell you there are times when you will appreciate that in house Teamsters or ALPA union that will make the case for your safety concerns.
I would go to the Feds where there are literal unsafe FLIGHT operating practices, continued violation of Flight Manual practices and unsafe CRM or Loss of Situational Awareness. But Republic has a union and that should be the first recourse when you fly the line.
Sadly she was not officially hired, paid but nor hired.
In her case the local EEOC is your venue for other complains. Never post yr stuff online when it is about work.
I feel her pain, being the only woman, or the only gay woman, or the most experienced woman is just not fun. She will recover from this - but hold your FAA fire for when you really really need it.
I think Ms. Van de Heuvel will recover from this. I would shift track here, she had been out of the loop. It is ok to say she felt very excluded from a critical shared learning tool. The group had a responsibility to include her.
Going to the FAA was not appropriate, but she felt unheard from management which lined with feeling excluded by the class. She will find another job.
This is my exclusive...I am the papers in this case, lol. My stories have been picked up by the AP, Bloomberg, the Dallas Morning News, etc. They never credit me even when I'm the one who tips them off, but I'm working on changing that.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I think she is out of f--cks to give after a long career and endless harassment and had legitimate cause for concern here. There was a lot I couldn't elaborate on so it made some of the pieces of this story a bit more vague than I would have liked. As for most of your points, I literally cannot argue as you clearly know far more than I do about that process, and any mistakes or omissions are probably my fault
Please keep this out of the main press… in order for her to find employment this is part of the search process. I am sure she is frustrated.
Going to the FAA and labeling a company “unsafe” requires a lot more than cribbing test answers. In training written answers are ever present and that is not terrible. Broadcasting that Regional 121 carriers are “unsafe” is also erroneous.
Had she complained about 135, or 121 flight operations where pilots fly like “cowboys” or if pilots ignore Flight protocol, neglect legally binding FAA OP Specification procedures, or if you have previous experience and you know certain things are wrong like Human Factors. That is a case for informing Management> union > HR> the Feds.
Thanks for making this info available - we can all learn from shared experiences.
It is a shame Ms. Van de Heuvel felt so isolated and excluded, companies really need to understand this is as much a bottom line issue as well.
I'll certainly point her to your comments so she can read your perspective because it truly seems you have her best interest at heart. This is all up to her though--I'm not in the business of telling women what to do and how to handle their own stories, and of course we're all aware of the expected blowback and consequences of standing up for what we think is right. After a 28 year career in aviation in several countries, she knows all of this and she doesn't want to sit still and be quiet anymore. Fear of speaking out is a huge part of why the industry is still like this. Without the women who share their stories here or elsewhere--they or their attorneys all come to me, I don’t seek them out—the perpetrators and enablers win. They want us all to be too afraid to speak out. Silence benefits the perpetrators and the status quo, never the victim. Anyway...the main thing is she wanted to come forward and I support her in that.
Send it out to the world Sara, show this company for the corrupt bigots that they really are.
It is people like S and M who enable these companies to act this way by sowing doubt and fear amongst us.
I'm frustrated and anxious?
Thanks for the frosted and insincere concern but I'm a not a school girl ,and I have paid more than my pound of flesh. If we don't stop this cancer against women then it only spreads and gets worse for the next generation.
No more.
I took this hit, and have shouldered it with the decision to share it with Sara on her mission to illuminate the world to the plight of women's abuse in the airlines.
Tell the world Sara, and thank you, my friends all say great job.
Because of you, this crime does not slide into obscurity and count for nothing.
This person knew intimate details that were not disclosed, such as the chief pilot not answering my email, and like any narcissist, can't help but show their poker hand while they are busy trying to blow their own horn being a know it all.🙃
I have no idea what you are talking about. The General Operations Manual for every company has an entire chapter that delineates then specifies who is accountable for what. It sounds like you tried initially. Every GOM across the US is boiler plate standard issued by the FAA. Only the company names and personnel vary.
Wow. Not a troll. International Airline pilot, union, Boeings since early 1990’s.
I sure don’t work for Republic - have no expectations that any employee from that company would ever engage here. I am responding based on my own 28yrs of airline experience.
Every single American Airline has the identical setup below. Federal laws mandate and states can slightly alter for better or worse.
The options were to contact Management>HR. Until completing an oral exam, checkride, then you are officially an “on line Pilot”. Like it or not airlines are a chain of command operation.
I concur that HR gen’l is for purposes of protecting the company. As for your situation, after IOE Union dues can be paid and representation would have been available for your situation.
Yes sexism is quite bad - the only solution is MORE women pilots in management.
Assaults DO happen - both psychological abuse and sexual assaults. I am so very familiar with that, have seen more than few women and gay pilots targeted by haters. Majority male crews can have some really bad actors. Very sad, I also have known women that were assaulted.
In your case the legal remedy outside the company would have been the EEOC. Or an attorney. Be certain to follow the chain of command the laws will expect you to.
My understanding was that you reported cheating on a written exam.
I don’t think I would have picked a fight over a written exam - I would have saved it for the Oral or the AQP Simulator sessions.
As for cowboy flying this is truth for Part 135. (I am talking about actual manipulation of controls.)There is zero training for standardized crew/flight CRM protocol.
Part 121 is to teach standardization of crews when operating aircraft and learning Crew Resource Management. “Cowboy-isms” do not exist in 121 except in a very few small companies. If there is an issue, then you follow the chain of command. You can call the FAA and make an anonymous complaint. You can always get a lawyer.
Not elevating this to the personal, but MC you do not sound like a pilot that has completed a ground school. Every single flight operation Charter135, Regional 121 & Airliner 121 teaches positions and responsibilities.
SvdH did follow the procedure.
YES my experience of safety has been you are ignored, until something bad happens. Frankly sexism is deeply ingrained, the industry is all male, they cant stand to be told “this could/will be the outcome please be aware” from a woman/minority.
Just look at the current news - a woman Intell Officer in Israel told her command that she believed HAMAS was planning this identical attack over a year ago.
I have reported safety issues several times I was right Every Damn Time. My concerns were deeply serious always about aircraft in motion. Some form of retaliation was the outcome or best case the Flight Manuals were changed. Good companies consider OPS manuals to be “Living Documents”.
Have I experienced Sexism? More than you will ever know. Women have been pushed out since they began flying jets. The only thing that will change this is an ERA/Equal Rights Amendment AND the presence of MORE WOMEN.
right on!! so let's let those women who feel able to stand up at a given time do it their way. Let's not try to squelch her story--or mine. Share everywhere. Disrupting that system that continues to benefit the patriarchy (who, by the way, doesn't play by the rules you're expecting Cassaundra to, trust me on that one), is never going to be a bad thing. It sounds like you've been through the wringer. I remember you and I met on a forum where you were the sane one presenting facts in the face of bizarre (and misogynistic IIRC?) conspiracy theories. I know we won't all agree all the time about when or how, but that's OK--each woman has to do it the way she sees fit for her own life, as Cassaundra has done. I did it myself. I quit celebrity journalism and went viral in 2016. This kind of thing makes some people VERY uncomfortable and sometimes I'm not even sure if they know why. I got a few people still in the industry who don't talk to me anymore, but far more important than that, I got way more messages from people sharing far worse stories than mine about abuse in the so-called "glamour professions" like TV and glossy magazines, and notes through saying the fact I stood up in a visible and disruptive way inspired them. It's all OK. Lives weren't at stake, but boy, you would've thought they were with how seriously this magazine took themselves--and how the system was designed to chew people up and put fear into them so those at the top remained there. The airline industry in the US is about money and it's run by old white men. I would say, support Cassaundra--or at least don't un-support her--even if it's not the way you would've done it. Republic will be fine. Let the FAA (or whomever) decide whether her reports are important or valid. in the meantime, as a passenger and a woman who's faced harassment and assault myself, i'm thrilled she spoke up
Not jumping at all. I was offering the path to beating the bastards…You are talking to someone that has been gay bashed her whole career, and was always the only woman on line til ‘02. Starting with a check airman way back “If we find out you are gay you will never make it.”
Most recently “She doesn't know how to talk to men” aka she’s a dyke, or
“You don’t fit in” aka she’s a know it all dyke. Fortunately I was, like Ms Pettit, absolutely correct.
I am not talking about sexual assault - all for prison on that! Get an attorney and file!
The best way to “win” is how Pettit/Delta, Southwest pilot did. Follow the state law/then seek counsel. Women need to win these battles.
💖💖💖💖💖💖💖
This is disturbing. There were a couple poor choices on her part or was it a failure to understand the process? That being said, Indiana is a very anti worker rights state. She will have little recourse.
Also it would have been better had the company selected at least 1 or 2 additional women for the class. Did I interpret her post accurately - has she been flying abroad?
A couple basic understandings - you must have a study partner for a program like this, that study partner will become your Simulator partner. Did she pick a partner? She may have missed this as she was out of flying for a few years according to the above. It could have been a cultural difference. Yes, if she was excluded from the primary study texts that is a genuine handicap. Study tips and references are often shared by this method.
She clearly was amongst the most experienced in the class but her role should be to do her own studies 1st, then participate where she could. Pilots work in TEAMS, Crew Resource Management is the very foundation of safety in Aviation. That would have smoothly integrated her into the all male group - something I have enormous sympathy for. It isn't that easy when dealing with less experienced guys.
There are sooo many exams involved. The first written exam she challenged is actually a great study basis for all that follows. Gouge on a written? Even better. In the pantheon of Aviation Academics be glad to have it, compare your own interpretations and submit accordingly. She picked the wrong fight here.
Oral exams are vastly more difficult, probative, require precise comprehension & cognitive reasoning sequence than the written. Save your fire sister, not having a study partner and complaining about gouge? I wish they had another woman in the class with you - that would have made a difference for sure. Going to the FAA for this was is not the best.
The decision to not upgrade is personal and will have to be defended. Better if you can point to substantiative reasons. Management may not say you’re correct, but they will live with it. Clearly they supported her decision by putting her in an FO class.
(This company has a highly experienced female CP. Since she was not flying on line Van de Heuvel was ineligible to request her input.)
As for going to the Feds, believe me when I tell you there are times when you will appreciate that in house Teamsters or ALPA union that will make the case for your safety concerns.
I would go to the Feds where there are literal unsafe FLIGHT operating practices, continued violation of Flight Manual practices and unsafe CRM or Loss of Situational Awareness. But Republic has a union and that should be the first recourse when you fly the line.
Sadly she was not officially hired, paid but nor hired.
In her case the local EEOC is your venue for other complains. Never post yr stuff online when it is about work.
I feel her pain, being the only woman, or the only gay woman, or the most experienced woman is just not fun. She will recover from this - but hold your FAA fire for when you really really need it.
I think Ms. Van de Heuvel will recover from this. I would shift track here, she had been out of the loop. It is ok to say she felt very excluded from a critical shared learning tool. The group had a responsibility to include her.
Going to the FAA was not appropriate, but she felt unheard from management which lined with feeling excluded by the class. She will find another job.
When did this happen? Did she make the papers?
This is my exclusive...I am the papers in this case, lol. My stories have been picked up by the AP, Bloomberg, the Dallas Morning News, etc. They never credit me even when I'm the one who tips them off, but I'm working on changing that.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I think she is out of f--cks to give after a long career and endless harassment and had legitimate cause for concern here. There was a lot I couldn't elaborate on so it made some of the pieces of this story a bit more vague than I would have liked. As for most of your points, I literally cannot argue as you clearly know far more than I do about that process, and any mistakes or omissions are probably my fault
Please keep this out of the main press… in order for her to find employment this is part of the search process. I am sure she is frustrated.
Going to the FAA and labeling a company “unsafe” requires a lot more than cribbing test answers. In training written answers are ever present and that is not terrible. Broadcasting that Regional 121 carriers are “unsafe” is also erroneous.
Had she complained about 135, or 121 flight operations where pilots fly like “cowboys” or if pilots ignore Flight protocol, neglect legally binding FAA OP Specification procedures, or if you have previous experience and you know certain things are wrong like Human Factors. That is a case for informing Management> union > HR> the Feds.
Thanks for making this info available - we can all learn from shared experiences.
It is a shame Ms. Van de Heuvel felt so isolated and excluded, companies really need to understand this is as much a bottom line issue as well.
I'll certainly point her to your comments so she can read your perspective because it truly seems you have her best interest at heart. This is all up to her though--I'm not in the business of telling women what to do and how to handle their own stories, and of course we're all aware of the expected blowback and consequences of standing up for what we think is right. After a 28 year career in aviation in several countries, she knows all of this and she doesn't want to sit still and be quiet anymore. Fear of speaking out is a huge part of why the industry is still like this. Without the women who share their stories here or elsewhere--they or their attorneys all come to me, I don’t seek them out—the perpetrators and enablers win. They want us all to be too afraid to speak out. Silence benefits the perpetrators and the status quo, never the victim. Anyway...the main thing is she wanted to come forward and I support her in that.
Send it out to the world Sara, show this company for the corrupt bigots that they really are.
It is people like S and M who enable these companies to act this way by sowing doubt and fear amongst us.
I'm frustrated and anxious?
Thanks for the frosted and insincere concern but I'm a not a school girl ,and I have paid more than my pound of flesh. If we don't stop this cancer against women then it only spreads and gets worse for the next generation.
No more.
I took this hit, and have shouldered it with the decision to share it with Sara on her mission to illuminate the world to the plight of women's abuse in the airlines.
Tell the world Sara, and thank you, my friends all say great job.
Because of you, this crime does not slide into obscurity and count for nothing.
👏👏👏👏👏👏
Absolutely
You didn't make any mistakes at all.
She is an employee of Republic, probably in HR and is attempting to manipulate you by downplaying and skewing the situation.
Nice try SM,
and its Mrs van den Heuvel, but you already knew that.
Absolutely.
This person knew intimate details that were not disclosed, such as the chief pilot not answering my email, and like any narcissist, can't help but show their poker hand while they are busy trying to blow their own horn being a know it all.🙃
I have no idea what you are talking about. The General Operations Manual for every company has an entire chapter that delineates then specifies who is accountable for what. It sounds like you tried initially. Every GOM across the US is boiler plate standard issued by the FAA. Only the company names and personnel vary.
Are you at the company or were you hired for damage control?
You have the same inhuman spin to your words that they do.
May I remind you that I am a human being that endured a hate crime at my job, and not a robot.
Reading your spoof, it's as though you are discussing someone's afternoon foibles at a gym.
This is my life, and neither you nor anyone else gets to step on it or smash it with your hamfisted segues or sociopathic sterilized speech.
And if you do call yourself a pilot? Sister you are batting for the wrong team.
Good day to you
Really?
You call yourself a pilot, and a woman.
OK does human being fit in there too?
How about a human response like..
Hey Cassaundra
SORRY that your husband burned to death in a plane crash that wasn't his fault.
SORRY that some 20 year old twerp decided to use that to torment you with in a sadistic hate crime.
SORRY that the training Captain bugged you almost daily with inappropriate sexual statements.
SORRY that the company tossed you in the trash like a used tissue with no regard or concern for your safety or well being.
SORRY that you lost half a million dollars in a contract that they refuse to honor.
SORRY that they pinged your perfect PRIA , out of spite
How about that for starters?
Now come again? You are an airline pilot, or an hr robot hired to tell Sara to shut this down.
Whose bed are you in, to be so cold about such an outrageous wrongdoing to a woman, solely because she is a woman.
If is a safety of flight issue, airlines try to correct in-house via training. Feds can participate. This case was different than Molin.
Poor choices..
And how is a victim of a hate crime making a poor choice SM? Thrill me with your acumen.
😅
Bingo
Thank you for seeing that
It could have been a cultural difference 😆😆😆
SM , how long have you been working for Republic?
Nice try lol 😆
Wow. Not a troll. International Airline pilot, union, Boeings since early 1990’s.
I sure don’t work for Republic - have no expectations that any employee from that company would ever engage here. I am responding based on my own 28yrs of airline experience.
Every single American Airline has the identical setup below. Federal laws mandate and states can slightly alter for better or worse.
The options were to contact Management>HR. Until completing an oral exam, checkride, then you are officially an “on line Pilot”. Like it or not airlines are a chain of command operation.
I concur that HR gen’l is for purposes of protecting the company. As for your situation, after IOE Union dues can be paid and representation would have been available for your situation.
Yes sexism is quite bad - the only solution is MORE women pilots in management.
Assaults DO happen - both psychological abuse and sexual assaults. I am so very familiar with that, have seen more than few women and gay pilots targeted by haters. Majority male crews can have some really bad actors. Very sad, I also have known women that were assaulted.
In your case the legal remedy outside the company would have been the EEOC. Or an attorney. Be certain to follow the chain of command the laws will expect you to.
My understanding was that you reported cheating on a written exam.
I don’t think I would have picked a fight over a written exam - I would have saved it for the Oral or the AQP Simulator sessions.
As for cowboy flying this is truth for Part 135. (I am talking about actual manipulation of controls.)There is zero training for standardized crew/flight CRM protocol.
Part 121 is to teach standardization of crews when operating aircraft and learning Crew Resource Management. “Cowboy-isms” do not exist in 121 except in a very few small companies. If there is an issue, then you follow the chain of command. You can call the FAA and make an anonymous complaint. You can always get a lawyer.
I wish you well.
Not elevating this to the personal, but MC you do not sound like a pilot that has completed a ground school. Every single flight operation Charter135, Regional 121 & Airliner 121 teaches positions and responsibilities.
SvdH did follow the procedure.
YES my experience of safety has been you are ignored, until something bad happens. Frankly sexism is deeply ingrained, the industry is all male, they cant stand to be told “this could/will be the outcome please be aware” from a woman/minority.
Just look at the current news - a woman Intell Officer in Israel told her command that she believed HAMAS was planning this identical attack over a year ago.
I have reported safety issues several times I was right Every Damn Time. My concerns were deeply serious always about aircraft in motion. Some form of retaliation was the outcome or best case the Flight Manuals were changed. Good companies consider OPS manuals to be “Living Documents”.
Have I experienced Sexism? More than you will ever know. Women have been pushed out since they began flying jets. The only thing that will change this is an ERA/Equal Rights Amendment AND the presence of MORE WOMEN.
right on!! so let's let those women who feel able to stand up at a given time do it their way. Let's not try to squelch her story--or mine. Share everywhere. Disrupting that system that continues to benefit the patriarchy (who, by the way, doesn't play by the rules you're expecting Cassaundra to, trust me on that one), is never going to be a bad thing. It sounds like you've been through the wringer. I remember you and I met on a forum where you were the sane one presenting facts in the face of bizarre (and misogynistic IIRC?) conspiracy theories. I know we won't all agree all the time about when or how, but that's OK--each woman has to do it the way she sees fit for her own life, as Cassaundra has done. I did it myself. I quit celebrity journalism and went viral in 2016. This kind of thing makes some people VERY uncomfortable and sometimes I'm not even sure if they know why. I got a few people still in the industry who don't talk to me anymore, but far more important than that, I got way more messages from people sharing far worse stories than mine about abuse in the so-called "glamour professions" like TV and glossy magazines, and notes through saying the fact I stood up in a visible and disruptive way inspired them. It's all OK. Lives weren't at stake, but boy, you would've thought they were with how seriously this magazine took themselves--and how the system was designed to chew people up and put fear into them so those at the top remained there. The airline industry in the US is about money and it's run by old white men. I would say, support Cassaundra--or at least don't un-support her--even if it's not the way you would've done it. Republic will be fine. Let the FAA (or whomever) decide whether her reports are important or valid. in the meantime, as a passenger and a woman who's faced harassment and assault myself, i'm thrilled she spoke up
Not jumping at all. I was offering the path to beating the bastards…You are talking to someone that has been gay bashed her whole career, and was always the only woman on line til ‘02. Starting with a check airman way back “If we find out you are gay you will never make it.”
Most recently “She doesn't know how to talk to men” aka she’s a dyke, or
“You don’t fit in” aka she’s a know it all dyke. Fortunately I was, like Ms Pettit, absolutely correct.
I am not talking about sexual assault - all for prison on that! Get an attorney and file!
The best way to “win” is how Pettit/Delta, Southwest pilot did. Follow the state law/then seek counsel. Women need to win these battles.
I'm so sorry you had to deal with this crap.
This and more